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Changing the world
one mind at a time
3rd-May-2002 05:36 am
Ok, I'll post this as a general question, not that I actually expect to see anyone responding. At the very least, if you happen to read this, please think about it for a while.

Let me explain where this is all coming from. As I'm sure many of you know, I'm pagan. However, one of my roommates is Fundy Xtian. This of course, leads to rather interesting dinner conversations. (For some reason, I'm a bit calmer in my dealings with him than my female roommate is.) Current topic of discussion is whether or not magick is possible, or for that matter whether or not it is evil.

Now, here are the options we've come up with.
A) All things are random chance, and praying for, casting for, or expecting something to happen has no overall outcome on the situation.

B)All magick is really the will of God, and all things happen through God's will.

C) Magick works, through preternatural resources that we do not as such yet understand completely. God(Gods, Goddess, etc, ad infinitum) may or may not play any role in it whatsoever.

D) Magick and prayer are all ways to reprogramme the subconcious mind to find the result you are looking for.

E) No of it really matters since the answer is not forthcoming in this lifetime.

Are there any options we have left out (besides us being psychotic losers), and where do you stand?
3rd-May-2002 05:00 am (UTC)
*grin* - I can't think of any significant viewpoint that you've omitted, but I just wanted to say that I definitely agree with (D), although I fully admit I could be wrong. I've been both Christian and Pagan in the past, and tried both prayer and magic, and only found them to be effective during times when it was a simple psychological change or shift of perspective that would take care of the problem.
3rd-May-2002 04:28 pm (UTC) - Re:
Pretty much...I like my mysticism too much to go completely with D), but in truth, I find that psychology does have more to do with it than anything else.
5th-May-2002 04:15 am (UTC)
Being an Eclectic Pagan and a person who has traveled a lot of spiritual paths in my 40+ plus years .
I think that magick works in ways that no one can completely explain , yes we can make ourselves stronger through faith in a certain beleif like in heaven or hell in a christian sense , i myself dont believe in either of them personally .Sometimes i think the concept is made in t hat respect to control folks with fear ....
My brother once said that religion keeps them free from fears of being worm food .He also said folks most the time go to church to see what each other is wearing ..but that is here nor there ..although his feelings were well validated (our brothers furneral was picketed by a bunch of right wing fundies (yes our brother was gay and he died of AIDs so they felt it was ok to scream and carry cruel signs saying "god "hated fags and that my brother was in hell ...BTW the same nice folks have a website which shows the murder victim Matthew Shepard burning in flames ( people like this helped me make a choice for myself,,i knew no faith that hated so much or judged so much .....
i think we make a big difference in difference in our own destinies ...i think using the concious and subconcious mind through training and study it is effect and is in itself a form of magic .
I have found that debateing over faith is useless for it comes from within ones own soul and never let someone change your faith because of guilt , threats of hellfire or by saying their way is the only right way .
My daily work is combating such its a life long job but one i feel helps a lot of people ..

9th-May-2002 10:19 pm (UTC)
One of these days I'll figure out a better way to respond to longer comments point by point.
So, until that day, here's a long delayed response.
In regards to Heaven or Hell-While I personally don't think they exist in the ways they've been presented to me, they do seem to inspire interesting art. Dante, Bosche, and Clive Barker come to mind.
I have no love of fundies. And I pray in my darkest hours that Phelps gets a surprise when he dies.
As for concious vs subconcious, I'm beginning to think that magick and belief are all matters of individual perception. I've stopped fighting the group mind, instead focusing on the individual mind. While my narrow-minded roomie may never understand my point of view, he is at least coming to respect it. And along the way, I'm learning to respect his views. We never really agree on much, but I don't think we'd be friends if we did. He likes to debate, and I don't mind challenging him. Same lesson I learned after coming out. I'm not doing anything by shouting as part of a group, but as an individual, I'm educating other individuals.
Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing aganst protesting, etc., but I do better in support roles. I learned this during the AIDS Quilt presentation at Wright State. I found that I was better handing out the tissues than I was at screaming at the protesters outside the Union.
I hope I have responded well to your comment. And in case I haven't told you recently, I love the articles you post.
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